NTR Apologist

Member
Oct 25, 2021
156
145
I rather take a VN with 10% of the text which is high quality and actually fits with the theme over a VN with 90% more content that ends up being just boring and useless drivel most of the time. Something being long doesn't mean it is good and I feel more Indie creators need to learn this. They just fill their games with pages upon pages of text and busy work just to make it long instead of good.
Most indie devs, like 4-kun said, aren't primarily writers. Most don't know when to take stuff out of a script as it's a passion project for many so there's a lot of bias in what they add and take out (if they ever do). A lot of the time, they tend to inflate their story with mundane and uninteresting details. But in their eyes, they're writing down something they believe is important. Many devs tunnel vision and lose sight of what they originally wrote or planned out for their story.
 

avervon

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Sep 24, 2022
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Most indie devs, like 4-kun said, aren't primarily writers. Most don't know when to take stuff out of a script as it's a passion project for many so there's a lot of bias in what they add and take out (if they ever do). A lot of the time, they tend to inflate their story with mundane and uninteresting details. But in their eyes, they're writing down something they believe is important. Many devs tunnel vision and lose sight of what they originally wrote or planned out for their story.
This is true way more often than not. A lot of the time people write down *every* aspect of a possible sequence of events thinking it is all necessary; I had that problem with my writing until a mentor of mine asked me to write a scene totaling 90 lines of dialogue using a maximum of 30 lines of dialogue, and I was surprised that I could condense it to 1/3 of the original size. It's eye-opening how much people inflate their stories.
 

ScoobyChris71

New Member
Aug 15, 2024
1
0
Totally unrelated tangent here,
But, I'm stuck at the game at state of "wandering around town". I can't trigger any event other than going into the cloth store and triggering a bugged scene of Kirito getting a `Cheap suit` from Lisa (repeat of a previous scene).
Any help here?
 

Kyotheman1001

Newbie
Jul 21, 2024
23
12
If I could decide the stories for NTR games then I would cut out like 90% text from all of them. I just want to get to the sex/NTR scenes and do not care about any of the "slice of life" or gameplay build up. Simply establish the relationship between the characters and how the loser MC loves the girl that is NTR'ed and that's more than enough for me. People who rather spent time with unrelated gameplay or story fluff instead of wanting to jerk to the NTR is not something I understand.
well in the end it is porn, most just want to see the scenes more then reading blocks of text
 

Kyotheman1001

Newbie
Jul 21, 2024
23
12
Can confirm this, having an insane "PC" to play the RPG Maker+KK game seems to be the 'solution', LMAO, never have had an issue running it on my GPD Win 4 XD
basically games are poorly optimized that's issue, Triple A games are doing same thing they rush games out without truly testing them look at Star wars Outlaw how was that game even released? We are beta testers for games now, glad there is community like this i don't have pay for these Porn games more than 85% aren't worth download
 

Kyotheman1001

Newbie
Jul 21, 2024
23
12
On Topic about the game, i know people already talked about it in previous 700 pages, I'm confused creator is not liking story how unfolding? Is this true this confuses me way more, story telling far far better what happen in part one. Maybe he doesn't like how its turning out, maybe wanted do something different you can always do side games after wards, just add different path choices later, or new game+ feature

think issue have with part two is how slow the story is progressing because what happen in Part 1 it was rushed very quickly, it being reset turn people off, or confused them, i was confused we going almost square one, why bother making part 1 then? Think he should of waited to do it on new engine, if part 2 was part one id wouldn't have much issues, everything in this part has been really dam good, blows the first game out of water comes to story and visuals, combat far better in part 2. I like music more too even though they are assets but used far better in this version.
 

avervon

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Sep 24, 2022
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If I could decide the stories for NTR games then I would cut out like 90% text from all of them. I just want to get to the sex/NTR scenes and do not care about any of the "slice of life" or gameplay build up. Simply establish the relationship between the characters and how the loser MC loves the girl that is NTR'ed and that's more than enough for me. People who rather spent time with unrelated gameplay or story fluff instead of wanting to jerk to the NTR is not something I understand.
NTR is a delicate balance of "The audience needs to sympathize with the cuck for the NTR to hold any value, otherwise it's just two characters fucking while some guy just exists", and "Please don't blue ball the audience trying to get to the actual sex by creating an entire LOTR universe for your characters to exist in before anything happens."

I think when NTR stories attempt to skip the slice of life/gameplay build up they usually lack any sense of substance and end up doing the bare minimum instead, because they cut *too* much out from the text.

NTR games, especially on the JP side, have a habit of rushing too fast into the sex that it doesn't feel memorable. And yeah, it's porn at the end of the day, but there is such a thing as "poorly-crafted porn" and "well-crafted porn". They're stories, just like anything else.

Fujino gets around this by incorporating the NTR into the mundane slice of life build up sections (sometimes). Random events with other NPCs getting NTRed, encountering characters in public while hinting at the NTR going on in the background, etc, which is a good method of telling the story he wants to make.
 

NTR Apologist

Member
Oct 25, 2021
156
145
On Topic about the game, i know people already talked about it in previous 700 pages, I'm confused creator is not liking story how unfolding? Is this true this confuses me way more, story telling far far better what happen in part one. Maybe he doesn't like how its turning out, maybe wanted do something different you can always do side games after wards, just add different path choices later, or new game+ feature
As far as I'm aware, Fujino has never said that he doesn't like how the story is unfolding. I think you're referring to the update he did beginning of last week where he said that after being away from his computer, he has had some time to think about the main plots and the end of the game.

So not really a statement of him not liking his story. I interpret this more so as either; him struggling to connect the plots to the ending(s) he had in mind, or him trying to write conclusions to each story arc of the characters and how it'll affect the ending he hadn't written yet.
 
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NTR Apologist

Member
Oct 25, 2021
156
145
If I could decide the stories for NTR games then I would cut out like 90% text from all of them. I just want to get to the sex/NTR scenes and do not care about any of the "slice of life" or gameplay build up. Simply establish the relationship between the characters and how the loser MC loves the girl that is NTR'ed and that's more than enough for me. People who rather spent time with unrelated gameplay or story fluff instead of wanting to jerk to the NTR is not something I understand.
I think when NTR stories attempt to skip the slice of life/gameplay build up they usually lack any sense of substance and end up doing the bare minimum instead, because they cut *too* much out from the text.

NTR games, especially on the JP side, have a habit of rushing too fast into the sex that it doesn't feel memorable. And yeah, it's porn at the end of the day, but there is such a thing as "poorly-crafted porn" and "well-crafted porn". They're stories, just like anything else.
I agree with that notion. I feel that there needs to be a build-up to the infidelity and it needs to create the relationship of the main characters with the bull and how this dynamic will end up harming the MC's relationship, or else you're just left with something bland, vapid, and unimaginative and the sex scenes won't hit as hard as they should cause you don't feel anything for the characters in the story.

I understand when others say, "It's just porn; get your nut off and move on." But some want a story to go with their porn. Investing in something makes it more satisfying when you nut IMO. If you're just gonna play these VNs and RPGM games for the visuals alone, then go to Hitomi. They upload almost everything that's been released under the sun.
 
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4-kun

Well-Known Member
Oct 14, 2018
1,991
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I agree with that notion. I feel that there needs to be a build-up to the infidelity and it needs to create the relationship of the main characters with the bull and how this dynamic will end up harming the MC's relationship, or else you're just left with something bland, vapid, and unimaginative and the sex scenes won't hit as hard as they should cause you don't feel anything for the characters in the story.

I understand when others say, "It's just porn; get your nut off and move on." But some want a story to go with their porn. Investing in something makes it more satisfying when you nut IMO. If you're just gonna play these VNs and RPGM games for the visuals alone, then go to Hitomi. They upload almost everything that's been released under the sun.
Yeah, that's why there are porn games—because someone thought at some point that just reading or watching wasn't enough. The next thing will probably be AR or VR. To live out your inner bull or cuck :ROFLMAO:
 
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avervon

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Sep 24, 2022
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I agree with that notion. I feel that there needs to be a build-up to the infidelity and it needs to create the relationship of the main characters with the bull and how this dynamic will end up harming the MC's relationship, or else you're just left with something bland, vapid, and unimaginative and the sex scenes won't hit as hard as they should cause you don't feel anything for the characters in the story.

I understand when others say, "It's just porn; get your nut off and move on." But some want a story to go with their porn. Investing in something makes it more satisfying when you nut IMO. If you're just gonna play these VNs and RPGM games for the visuals alone, then go to Hitomi. They upload almost everything that's been released under the sun.
I think a good analogy to use in this scenario is the story of a rom-com when compared to the story of NTR.

The end goal of a rom-com is to see the protagonist develop their relationship with a character and eventually become a couple.

A big problem with rom-coms in anime is that they can't find a good sweet spot between reaching the end goal and developing their relationship in a meaningful way, the latter of which leads to dragging out the story by padding it with needless content.

If you drag out the story without a resolution, your audience gets bored when Misunderstanding #59 happens on the last episode (a.k.a. nearly every single anime rom-com in the 2010s).

But if you reach the end goal too quickly you get what happened with Horimiya, where audience retention suddenly drops towards the end because the main point of the anime -- the main protagonists getting together -- reaches its conclusion halfway through the season. Why would people care about anything else? The climax happened 6 episodes ago, the rest is just filler.

The Tomo-chan Is a Girl anime did a good job of balancing out this dynamic; the main couple gets together somewhere towards the end of the anime, but also doesn't end the series on the confession. The majority of the anime is setting up their eventual relationship, but not only does it actually provide a resolution to the build up, it also shows them *being* a couple for a few episodes afterwards, which is important.

NTR that fails to reach its end goal in a meaningful way becomes boring and stale. NTR that reaches the end goal too quickly becomes unmemorable.
 
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noobpilot

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Apr 27, 2020
26
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Gallery mod for part 2 (501) randomly stops respond if choose view full scene...
It is possible to do something with that?
 

bakuoboom

New Member
Jun 19, 2023
7
9
NTR is a delicate balance of "The audience needs to sympathize with the cuck for the NTR to hold any value, otherwise it's just two characters fucking while some guy just exists", and "Please don't blue ball the audience trying to get to the actual sex by creating an entire LOTR universe for your characters to exist in before anything happens."

I think when NTR stories attempt to skip the slice of life/gameplay build up they usually lack any sense of substance and end up doing the bare minimum instead, because they cut *too* much out from the text.

NTR games, especially on the JP side, have a habit of rushing too fast into the sex that it doesn't feel memorable. And yeah, it's porn at the end of the day, but there is such a thing as "poorly-crafted porn" and "well-crafted porn". They're stories, just like anything else.

Fujino gets around this by incorporating the NTR into the mundane slice of life build up sections (sometimes). Random events with other NPCs getting NTRed, encountering characters in public while hinting at the NTR going on in the background, etc, which is a good method of telling the story he wants to make.
Yeah, I really agree that his way of storytelling is interesting. But the character's logic of MC and Heroine and some others made my logic sense hurt(in a bad way) That's why I said earlier that I respect his effort and love the art/animation but I can't enjoy the overall game.
But I love how you guys discuss it. It made me feel a bit better that people that has logical sense are still here and understand that VN is not just a quick-fap but also needs work on other aspects too. If I only cared about art then honestly I wouldn't play VN based games.
 

gaka200

Active Member
Feb 14, 2023
691
796
Yeah, I really agree that his way of storytelling is interesting. But the character's logic of MC and Heroine and some others made my logic sense hurt(in a bad way) That's why I said earlier that I respect his effort and love the art/animation but I can't enjoy the overall game.
But I love how you guys discuss it. It made me feel a bit better that people that has logical sense are still here and understand that VN is not just a quick-fap but also needs work on other aspects too. If I only cared about art then honestly I wouldn't play VN based games.
The easy explanation is just that NTR logic is never really going to make any sense whatsoever. Or well it could, but there's a unique restriction applied and that restriction is that this one in particular is an SAO parody. Cause it's logical for someone to get stolen, if the person that ends up falling/cheating isn't that faithful/loyal to begin with. But Kirito and Asuna due to their past history should have a dramatically strong bond and Asuna is also capable of understanding boundaries, so the idea of a "logical" progression of events that is faithful to the MC and Heroine is pretty much impossible. Being faithful to their characters would mean NTR would never happen at all.

When you mention that you find Fujino's storytelling is interesting, I'd like to believe that is you acknowledging that the story is "decently logical", since it can't be interesting if it doesn't make any sense at all.
 
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avervon

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The easy explanation is just that NTR logic is never really going to make any sense whatsoever. Or well it could, but there's a unique restriction applied and that restriction is that this one in particular is an SAO parody. Cause it's logical for someone to get stolen, if the person that ends up falling/cheating isn't that faithful/loyal to begin with. But Kirito and Asuna due to their past history should have a dramatically strong bond and Asuna is also capable of understanding boundaries, so the idea of a "logical" progression of events that is faithful to the MC and Heroine is pretty much impossible. Being faithful to their characters would mean NTR would never happen at all.

When you mention that you find Fujino's storytelling interesting, I'd like to believe that is you acknowledging that the story is "decently logical", since it can't be interesting if it doesn't make any sense at all.
There was one NTR doujin I found particularly interesting in which a woman got "cucked" by the new neighbor next to them. It started out as an NTR, but progressed into a story in which the reader rooted for the heroine to get stolen away from her boyfriend. This was because throughout the story, it is revealed that the boyfriend is a terrible person who talked behind her back and degraded her to his friends, while the bull was an incredibly sweet person who cared for the woman. In this sense, the NTR becomes justified and transitions into a case of loyalty being punished and infidelity being rewarded.

This SAO parody is great in that there is a lot of potential that Fujino has set up because of how meticulous the build up has been. Now can SAO pull off a similar scenario as unique as what I've outlined above? Probably not. Inoda has already been portrayed as an irredeemable antagonist, and any attempt to portray him in a positive light in a vacuum would be going against the narrative Fujino has been writing. In addition, Kirito wouldn't be the type to cheat on Asuna, at least canonically.

With how Fujino has been pushing the dual "corruption" of Kirito between both Liz and Suguha, I'd be interested in knowing if people would begin to justify Asuna cheating with a more caring Inoda if Kirito indulged in other women of his own volition, or if that would ruin the NTR fantasy that's been happening up to this point.
 
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Kiri-Be

Newbie
Jun 18, 2018
49
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NTR is a delicate balance of "The audience needs to sympathize with the cuck for the NTR to hold any value, otherwise it's just two characters fucking while some guy just exists", and "Please don't blue ball the audience trying to get to the actual sex by creating an entire LOTR universe for your characters to exist in before anything happens."

I think when NTR stories attempt to skip the slice of life/gameplay build up they usually lack any sense of substance and end up doing the bare minimum instead, because they cut *too* much out from the text.

NTR games, especially on the JP side, have a habit of rushing too fast into the sex that it doesn't feel memorable. And yeah, it's porn at the end of the day, but there is such a thing as "poorly-crafted porn" and "well-crafted porn". They're stories, just like anything else.

Fujino gets around this by incorporating the NTR into the mundane slice of life build up sections (sometimes). Random events with other NPCs getting NTRed, encountering characters in public while hinting at the NTR going on in the background, etc, which is a good method of telling the story he wants to make.
You make some good points, but I simply feel that it doesn't work out for me most of the time if the games take too long or add too much details. Some of that probably stems from the fact that I do not need any kind of build up or details to sympathize with the cuck, since the fundamental situation of something he loves being stolen/lost/unattainable from him is a very strong emotional factor in itself for me, even in a complete vacuum of information. Besides that I am probably a lot more into the humiliation aspect of NTR than most people so feeling bad for the cuck is quite the opposite of what the NTR evokes in me, or what I want out of it in the first place.

And in a more meta kind of sense I am simply too burned out or distrustful of NTR stories to really want to put a lot of time into reading about the buildup without knowing how it will end. Too many NTR stories (even "Heavy" ones) have switched gear mid development or mid story and railroaded the game into either a "Good" end, or something that diminishes the NTR that has happened over the course of the game. I simply cannot find it in me to give most games the benefit of the doubt anymore. Therefore I prefer short and to the point NTR games where the stuff I read NTR for actually happens.

I am completely aware that this is a very personal issue to have and most people won't ever take this into consideration when talking about these games since they do not feel the same way about it.

I find it to be a very NTR specific set of issues that I rarely encounter in other kinks.
 
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13Gatsu777

Active Member
Nov 6, 2019
605
1,084
Gallery mod for part 2 (501) randomly stops respond if choose view full scene...
It is possible to do something with that?
It may have to do with processing the Gif, which one you do use the most for it to happen? Do you quickly go through each gif or not? I do have some lag when i do the testing but randomly stops responding that's new
 

NTR Apologist

Member
Oct 25, 2021
156
145
With how Fujino has been pushing the dual "corruption" of Kirito between both Liz and Suguha, I'd be interested in knowing if people would begin to justify Asuna cheating with a more caring Inoda if Kirito indulged in other women of his own volition, or if that would ruin the NTR fantasy that's been happening up to this point.
I don't believe Inoda will be more caring anytime soon lol. At the beginning of Part 2, when Asuna ignores Inoda and ghosts him, he said he'll enact his revenge and make her into his bitch. But I guess he can change his mind later on and start treating her better without such vengeful tendencies.

While it wouldn't ruin the NTR fantasy for me if Kirito starts to also cheat on Asuna willingly, it wouldn't help justify Asuna's much earlier and current infidelity. I won't ever rationalize cheating, even if the SO of the primary cheater starts doing it later on.
 

avervon

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You make some good points, but I simply feel that it doesn't work out for me most of the time if the games take too long or add too much details. Some of that probably stems from the fact that I do not need any kind of build up or details to sympathize with the cuck, since the fundamental situation of something he loves being stolen/lost/unattainable from him is a very strong emotional factor in itself for me, even in a complete vacuum of information. Besides that I am probably a lot more into the humiliation aspect of NTR than most people so feeling bad for the cuck is quite the opposite of what the NTR evokes in me, or what I want out of it in the first place.

And in a more meta kind of sense I am simply too burned out or distrustful of NTR stories to really want to put a lot of time into reading about the buildup without knowing how it will end. Too many NTR stories (even "Heavy" ones) have switched gear mid development or mid story and railroaded the game into either a "Good" end, or something that diminishes the NTR that has happened over the course of the game. I simply cannot find it in me to give most games the benefit of the doubt anymore. Therefore I prefer short and to the point NTR games where the stuff I read NTR for actually happens.

I am completely aware that this is a very personal issue to have and most people won't ever take this into consideration when talking about these games since they do not feel the same way about it.

I find it to be a very NTR specific set of issues that I rarely encounter in other kinks.
You do bring up a good point about the meta reason for NTR. I can't count how many games start out promising, but peter out until they either cease development, or come out with a product that isn't what was advertised.

Netorare isn't my personal kink since netori is more what I enjoy, but I would agree that a lot of NTR stories don't fully understand how to capitalize on the NTR aspect. I find that too many games lean on NTR solely being a "kink," rather than NTR being a genuine part of the story process, which is why I feel it sometimes ends up being diminished over the course of a story. And while that isn't bad (as a lot of fetish content does this as well), I am always interested in how stories can be improved or crafted differently.

What stands out to me in Fujino's story is that NTR is used as a device to reinforce the themes of the main couple, rather than just being a kink.

For example, not only is Inoda going after Asuna, he corrupts the mother as well. This emphasizes the "power" Inoda has in real life compared to Kirito in-game, who is subservient to Asuna's mother. It forms a hierarchy in which Inoda is at the top, while Kirito is at the bottom. It also serves to show that Inoda is capable of eventually corrupting Asuna, considering he has done so with her guardian.

You could also see his constant corruption of Asuna in the game as a slow usurpation of Kirito's raw combat strength in FOG (which fits the stealthy, crafty, rogue-type personality that Inoda is displayed as, as opposed to Kirito's blunt, awkward, and brute-force way of doing things).

Suguha gets corrupted by NTR, but that's used as a way for her to pursue her brother. Liz uses Inoda's plan to steal Asuna as a way for her to get with Kirito, which then serves to throttle Inoda's relationship with Asuna. The activities with Alice are used as a device to sow doubt within Asuna about Kirito, while also doubling as NTR with Klein. The story doesn't stop at "Inoda cucks Kirito," it uses NTR in very creative ways from normal NTR games I've seen, at least in my opinion.

This could also just be me talking out of my ass and me being completely wrong about Fujino's story, that is just as likely.

I think one of the changes I disliked about Fujino's story was the decision to stop including NPC sex scenes in the game (even though I think it was necessary in order to allow Fujino to focus on the other characters).

The NPCs in Fujino's previous games, as well as Part 1, were a great way to implement NTR into the interactions of the city, because they reinforced the state of Kirito's mentality throughout the game while also serving to populate the various areas. That green-haired guy who indulged in NTR with his wife in the church was a great marker as to where Kirito could be at the end of his journey, almost like a foil. There was an entire sequence where you needed to talk with him, so it was most certainly done on purpose.

And while these NPCs still exist, they lack a purpose. I used to interact with these NPCs in Part 1, but in Part 2 I rarely do after the change to stop including them, because their current interactions are generic. In his Scathach game, the inclusion of a sub-heroine and NTR within the village made exploration much more rewarding.

Sorry for the wall of text, I just talk a lot.
 
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